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Real cribbage rules Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Dec 14 2021 8:02AM Cribbage is a game that originated in England, NOT America. The official rules were written ages ago, centuries before the ACC was even a twinkle in its parents' eyes. I suggest anyone who wants to learn the original rules of the game should read a book called "All about Cribbage" that was written by Douglas Anderson & published in 1974. It is a book held in high esteem & is basically the cribbage bible. If you only read things that google enables you to, such as what Wikipedia says or the rules ACC has adopted, this may lead to confusion. I understand, it's an easy mistake to make, but if you want to learn things, it's better to read books than believe in what the internet says, lol. Reference Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Dec 14 2021 9:56AM In the aforementioned book; skunking is mentioned in chapter 13: "The rules of cribbage". Rule 14, on page 68 specifically explains that it isn't really an official rule, just one that can be used if both players agree to do so. Cribbage rules Posted by iPeg (VIP) Dec 14 2021 11:27AM Not sure what your point is regarding rules. The most comprehensive and widely accepted rules for modern cribbage are provided by the ACC and adopted by the various cribbage sites that I am aware of. Of course players or organizations may adopt special rules for games under their control, including how to handle points, etc. for skunks. clarification Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Dec 15 2021 9:47AM Thanks iPeg for 'clarifying' my points. Loved your use of the word "modern" when mentioning a game that has had well defined rules for centuries. That amused me, but when you said "widely accepted rules", your sarcasm hit the nail on the head. I agree totally, it's ridiculous that some 40yr old American organisation (that no non-American cares what rules they use) thinks they can re-invent a wheel that was fine way before they came into existence. Rules Posted by iPeg Dec 17 2021 11:13PM In fact, I didnât intend to be sarcastic and Iâm sorry if you took it that way. I would be interested in knowing which of the rules of cribbage are different now than 40 years ago. Can you summarize the differences? Is there a more comprehensive rule book than the one provided by the ACC? I donât think the basic rules have changed much in a very long time. The ACC rules standardize things like shuffling, cutting for deal, how to handle various pegging errors, dealing errors, and other errors during play. These are very specific and necessary in tournament play. Have you read the ACC rule book? I was unable to find an online copy of the book you mentioned. It would be an interesting read, Iâm sure. Messages Posted by iPeg Dec 17 2021 11:18PM The messaging program in this forum should also be updated to handle apostrophes. Sorry that my previous message is different to read because of that. Messages Posted by iPeg Dec 17 2021 11:19PM And autocorrect can be frustrating as well! ACC Posted by 221bBakerSt (VIP) Dec 18 2021 1:00PM Visit the ACC website. The link is provided in GameColony, as there is an association between GC and the ACC. If you are unable to find it here, it is at www.cribbage.org The answer is yes. I have read it in its entirety, many times as I am a judge in the ACC. I agree Ipeg, for the most part, cribbage is relatively unchanged, but because every family developed their own 'rules', or every pub in the UK; standard rules were deemed essential for tournament play. ImDerc doesn't play in tournaments, which is why standardized rules or even skunks are irrelevant to him. He is correct, there really is no organized cribbage outside of North America. Here it is played with very large crowds or in tiny towns in Grass Roots play. This would be the difference between playing at a pub with a bunch of mates for poker, vs playing in the World Series of Poker. Think there is a difference in rules? Of course, there is. One is written down and enforced, the other is made up depending on where you are playing, but the basics of poker have not changed in 200 years. If you want to play in the local pub or kitchen at a friend's house fantastic! If you want to play in the World Series, then that is the ACC. Comparing the UK's play to the USA/Canada play is apples and oranges. Book Posted by 221bBakerSt (VIP) Dec 19 2021 12:07PM In the spirit of education and improvement, I have ordered the book that ImDerc recommended above via Amazon. It is due to arrive around Dec 28th. I am eager to see what the 'bible' of cribbage has to say about the game. No Organised cribbage outside North America? Posted by gjamies1 Dec 20 2021 11:00AM 221bBakerSt, I can tell you there are at least 4 cribbage leagues in Bristol UK alone and I attend a monthly cribathon organised by my local club where everyone is invited and usually there are well over 50 players all playing doubles crib. The main difference I can see is the cut for who deals first. Most online games essentially count 1-13, ace to king. We cut any "10" card, 10, jack, queen or king and we will cut again at all 10 cards are considered equal. In the UK we also predominantly play 31 hole 5 card 7 games where all games count with usually 8 players per side so technically we get draws, 28 all. Oh, and why is the world series always in the US? :) Not sure Posted by 221bBakerSt (VIP) Dec 21 2021 11:03PM Why is the World Series in the USA? I am not sure, except that it draws between 600 and 1000 players. Basically the best in the world. Players from S Africa attend the UK, Japan, Australia, the S Pacific. If the UK could host 1000 players in the crib tourney, we would all come to the UK. How about then? We had 100 just on a cruise on a boat crossing the Atlantic from Rome to Miami. Pretty sure it is a numbers game.... ImDerc Posted by 221bBakerSt (VIP) Dec 22 2021 12:27AM The book that ImDerc wanted me to order is almost here. I cannot wait to see what the 'cribbage bible' has to say. will be here in 5 days. So excited. Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 6 2022 8:23AM Hope you enjoy the read baker, but question the accuracy of your statement "the book Imderc wanted me to order". I've read through my previous posts & no where have I said I wanted you to order the book, you chose to do that. Glad you did though; because you will learn what the REAL rules are. page 68, rule 14 Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 6 2022 8:38AM After you read that Baker, please explain why ACC decided to attempt to dictate the rules of the game to the rest of the world. It baffles me why some random 40yr old American organisation thinks they can do so. Especially when the game was invented in the UK centuries ago. Surely they get the final word on the official rules, not some Johnny come lately like the ACC. Page 68 rule 14 Posted by iPeg (VIP) Jan 6 2022 8:04PM Imderc please quote the rule so all of us who do not have the book can follow along. Thanks Skunking rules Posted by iPeg (VIP) Jan 7 2022 8:11PM Ok, I see it now in your previous post that Rule 14, on page 68 in Andersonâs book explains that skunking it isn't really an official rule, just one that can be used if both players agree to do so. Iâm surprised you quote from a book published in 1971. Why donât we go back to the book âThe Compleat Gamesterâ by Charles Cotton, printed in London in 1725? Hereâs a quote from the book in Section IX, âThe Game at Cribbidgeâregarding what we now call skunking (in a game to 61): âHere note, if you get to the Game before your adversary is forty five (forty four will not do it) you must then say, I have lurkt you, and that is a double Game, for whatever you played with, six Shillings, or a greater sum.â So it appears that a form of skunking was part of the rules almost 300 years ago. Of course any two players or an organization such as the ACC can specify rules regarding how to treat this aspect of the game, for games played under their purview. Even the ACC treats skunks differently in qualifying games vs playoffs. The ACC is not dictating how to handle skunks to the rest of the world, as you contend. I agree with you That there is no universal rule regarding skunks, similar to the sequence of play, and point values for the various card combinations. Regarding the basic rules of cribbage, the ACC has adopted the universally accepted rules vs. creating their own, except where necessary to address a variety of finer points, especially regarding player mistakes or attempted cheating, in order to ensure fairness for all tournament players. So you are right about that but Iâm still not sure why you seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding the ACC. Thankyou for proving my point iPeg Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 8 2022 3:58AM Ummmm, why would a player "MUST" have to declare a skunking if it was a rule set in stone & not just an option both players were required to agree to prior to the game? Surely if it was a definitive rule, no declaration would be required, both players would just understand what happened. Not disputing a form of skunking has existed for centuries, it has. But as the "BIBLE" says "at the commencement of the game the players must decide whether the "lurch" or "skunk" is to apply", so in my eyes that is just an optional rule. Disagree the ACC has adopted the "universally accepted rules". Find that statement both naive & hilarious. As I have previously stated; the game originated in the UK; centuries prior to the game even being introduced by a brit to America. So Americans can play by the rules the ACC dictates to them & the the rest of the world can play by the original UK rules; where skunking is nothing more than just a fun option. As American's tend to do, they mistakenly think there is no rule that says skunking is anything more than variant of the game that both players must agree prior to the game. It is only the ACC who has tried The rules I have quoted Baker have you got your book yet? Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 8 2022 6:59AM In your earlier post you mentioned it was coming on the 28th of December, has it arrived yet or is it a week & a half late? Hope you haven't received it & don't want to admit I'm right. I understand it could be somewhat embarrassing to find out the rules the ACC has adopted & that you thought were biblical aren't quite the original rules. No hard feelings, feel sorry the ACC has conned you for years, but glad you know the truth now if you have received your book. If you are yet to receive the book, spoiler alert, I'm right, lol. Take care mate Skunk rule according to ACC Posted by iPeg (VIP) Jan 8 2022 9:42AM The word âskunkâ only appears 3 times in the ACC rule book. Twice, in the definitions of âskunkâ and âstink holeâ and once in the rule on recording scores on scorecards, in which a skunk is to be counted as 3 points and a regular win is to be counted as 2 points. This is intended for ACC grass roots and tournament play. It is not dictating to the world on how to address skunks. ImDerc, you seem to be trying to stir up controversy where there is none. What other ACC rules do you disagree with? I suppose you will actually have to read the ACC rule book to determine that. ACC rule book Posted by iPeg (VIP) Jan 8 2022 9:52AM If you take the time to read the ACC rule book, the title says âCribbage Tournament Rulesâ. They are intended for ACC tournament play. The title doesnât say âOfficial and Universal Rules of Cribbage Dictated by ACC to the Rest of the Worldâ Yes ImDerc Posted by 221bBakerSt (VIP) Jan 9 2022 6:23PM I have received the book, I just have not had the time to look at it yet. As stated earlier, if/when UK plays as much tournament cribbage as the USA does, then the UK would also have to have standardized rules. (doubles and partners does not count, that is all Canada plays also and has more cheaters than Pentonville Prison.) But alas, the UK does not have standardized rules. It oftentimes relies on 'house' rules that can change from venue to pub depending on where you are. You never did respond as to why the World Series of Cribbage is in the USA, nor that almost every cribbage board made in modern times has a skunk or double skunk on the board. We have many in the UK come to Reno, but I have yet to hear of an American going to the UK for a tournament. Everything that IPeg has said in his posts are 100% true. ImDerc, I would pay and invite you for your room if you ever came to Reno to see what real tournament play is like. Let me know when you can make it. I will gladly take care of your rooms and meals. Who do i address first? Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 10 2022 3:45AM Gunna toss a coin, heads: iPeg & tails: baker. Congrats baker, you won. The ETA you provided for the of arrival of the book "I wanted you to order" & you were "so excited" to receive was 13 days ago. When did it arrive? A day or 2 late, maybe a week? Regardless, curiosity kills most cats, but you have "not had the time to look at it yet". You haven't had the time to read the specific chapter, rule & page number I provided you???. That would take about 20 seconds to find & maybe 15 seconds to read, you must be a VERY busy man baker. Glad I don't live as hectic life as you do. Did I hide my sarcasm well? The lyrics of the theme song from the movie "Watership down" are ringing in my ears & I just feel the need to share them. Bright eyes, burning like fire. Bright eyes, how can you close & fail? How can the light the burned so brightly, suddenly burn so pale? I don't live in the UK Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 10 2022 4:57AM Pretty sure they have "Standardised" rules in the UK (notice the difference in spelling???); but I'll let people who play competitive cribbage there prove you wrong if needed, I have no idea, never been there. Sorry for not responding as to why the World Series of Cribbage is held in the USA. Please forgive me as a non-American for not really caring or having any interest in attending. I'm sure many fellow non-Americans (roughly 99% of the world's overall population) share my thoughts. Haven't used a modern cribbage board EVER (mine's about 3 generation's old), so don't know why they have skunk or double skunk markings. If I was to have a guess as to why that is the case, my stab in the dark are some people like applying the OPTIONAL skunk rule. If they get lucky enough cards to beat their opponent by 30 or 60pts & there are markings on the boards they play with to highlight that, wow that's sheer skill, not a kilogram of luck involved at all. Thanks for your offer about Reno, but no thanks. My girlfriend might get jealous if you pay for my room & meals. Or she may mistakenly think I can't afford that myself, lol. Skunking skill vs luck Posted by iPeg Jan 10 2022 4:32PM In any given game, winning by skunk depends a great deal upon luck, just like in the case of a regular win. In the long run, however, statistics regarding skunks are a good indicator of skill, similar to winning percentage. chalk & cheese Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 16 2022 2:18AM Skunking relies "a great deal upon luck"?? I agree with you 50%, but I would just say skunking relies on "a great deal", actually several throughout the game. As I'm sure you have too; I've won many games where my opponent got better deals & luck than I did. Likewise I'm sure we've both lost games where we got the better rub of the green. When a player gets worse cards & wins; those games are won through skill. If the luck of the draw was slightly uneven, I've won & lost games by 5-20 pts. But I've never been skunked or skunked someone because they or I played so poorly in that instance. Games like that usually come down how skillfully each player played or who made the least small (1 or 2 pnt) mistakes or misreads of their opponents hands. Whenever both players get somewhat similar cards the winner is usually decided by who played those cards slightly better or who got to count more hands than their opponent (yes I'm aware that can be skillfully manipulated). Games for Tickets on this site can be reviewed, would love for you to tell me about any game you've won or lost by over 30pts that you believe occurred due to anything other than luck. Don't be fooled by winning percentages either, my percentages are crap, but somehow I haven't had to buy any tickets for over a year & regularly play high Ticket games. Skunks and winning percentage Posted by iPeg Jan 17 2022 6:24PM I could argue that skunks take just as much skill as straight wins, so I will, lol. Of course to get into a position to achieve a skunk takes good cards, but the difference between a 28 point win and a 32 point win very often is dependent upon skill. I have analyzed many above average to elite players regarding winning and skunk percentage and found that a player with a high winning percentage typically has a higher percentage for games ending in skunks. For example, one excellent player on <edited> has a 55 percent winning percentage for all games and a 60 percent winning percentage for games ending in skunks. You will find just the opposite for unskilled players. They will typically get skunked far more than winning by skunk. Regarding your own winning percentage and ability to win tickets, the high ticket game break even point is 52.6 percent while the lower ticket games require 55.5 percent. For a player of apparently less than elite skills, you are indeed wise to play the higher stakes games on here. Baker; wherefore art thou? Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 18 2022 9:07AM Just wondering if you have found the minute or so to read the rules of the bible yet? Hopefully you've had time to read the entire book. If so, you've realised it was the first book EVER to be written SOLELY about cribbage. Hence why I refer to it as the bible. So can you explain why 7 or 8 years later; when the ACC formed, they took it upon themselves to re-write rule 14? idk if you have a conflict of interest here with ACC membership... Nice statistics iPeg Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 19 2022 6:35AM Love your statistics iPeg, won't change the way I play the game & here's a cautionary tale about citing statistics: there are 3 common categories of lies ranked by increasing perniciousness low-to-high: (1)simple lies (2)damn lies (3)statistics. How do you know what percentage of games are won by skunking on this site? Do your statistics include data about games played in the privacy of people's homes? Do they send all results to you to analyse? You are right about a couple of things though. Yes, you could argue when skunks are decided by less than a handful of points, it may come down to skill, just like when games come are decided by a few points. You are also correct when you say to achieve a skunk takes good cards, so whoever gets the aforementioned luck should just thank their lucky stars, take the win & not expect an extra bonus for their good fortune in that particular game. Statistics Posted by iPeg Jan 19 2022 9:42AM ImDerc, if you read my previous post, I stated where I got my statistics from. Do your own research. If you have a little Sherlock Holmes in you and enjoy a challenge, I am sure you can find a way to access the information. The general trend holds true that winning percentage and skunk percentage are statistically related. umm, no you didn't Posted by ImDerc (VIP) Jan 19 2022 2:01PM You didn't actually say where you got your stats from, but I'll have a stab in the dark & say the ACC. If so, why are you taking data from a 40yr old group that wouldn't even have played .001% of the games that have ever been played in the history of cribbage & extrapolating that minute data sample to back up your opinion??? |
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